FOF #752 – Good Sex, Bad Sex

May 2, 2008 · 243214 views

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Sex is like lot like pizza- no matter how bad it is it’s still pretty good. But the thing with sex is that everyone thinks they are the greatest lover, but sex is also like […]

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  1. the zak says:

    A thought experiment… the strategy of let’s get tested TOGETHER BEFORE we have sex for A VARIETY of STDs. A sexual health checkup reduces ambiguity and can be like anything else potential sex partners might do together.

  2. Teddy says:

    i had a great time that night guys! can’t wait for the next live show.

  3. Marc Felion says:

    Well, Zak, that is a safer sex practice but remember, they say you should be tested every six months for HIV. And what are you going to do if the person you’re with isn’t honest about their sexual history or current behaviors? For all you know, your sex partner may be screwing some wild cougar too.

  4. the zak says:

    > Well, that is a safer sex practice but remember, they say you
    > should be tested every six months for HIV.

    A benchmark testing covers many years beforehand.
    Another test with different results detects
    a period of time over where change occurred,
    useful information for optimal treatment for an infection.

    > And what are you going to do if the person you’re with isn’t
    > honest about their sexual history or current behaviors?

    Testing will detect infections.

    > For all you know, your sex partner may be screwing some wild
    > cougar too.

    Mutual fidelity.
    There’s no test for mutual fidelity. There’s no claim getting tested
    TOGETHER BEFORE having sex could prevent cheating. You could say
    practicing the strategy does let potential sex partners know something
    more about each other for example how they regard matters of life and
    death.

    Zoology. Sociobiology.
    A wily, experienced feline going after a toothsome little rabbit can
    make food of the animal.

    And then infectious organisms have a life too.

  5. the zak says:

    Why not just do it? What’s the worst that could happen?

    You could get a horrible disease and spend years dying.

    Or you could give someone a horrible disease and they
    could spend years dying.

  6. Barbieboy07 says:

    Hey guys i was one of the attendees for the event and lemme tell ya at first it was really awkward watching Dr. Morales squirm in her seat, she seems like a nice lady but she was really uncomfortable up there. The author of the book, David seemed to engage in the conversation but really didn’t have much to say. I’ve got to say the free condoms and the food really kept me in my seats. The start of the discussion was really dry, but once the audience got into it, it got heavy and fast.

    Tracey was right in saying that the atmosphere kind of changed, i was seated directly behind the gentlemen who felt that HIV positive people were being discriminated against. I have friends (older and younger) who are positive and once other ppl find out about there status they are treated differently, and that kind of prejudice is completely ridiculous, instead of nurturing and loving positive ppl we are turing them away? I”ve seen ppl actually run away when told that my best friend was positive, they thought i was too, and wanted nothing to do with me in fear of catching “IT”.

    Also i’ve got to say that i’ve been to alot of parties with a pretty good mix of older and younger gays, and NEVER have i seen or heard of someone doing meth. If meth is such a big problem then it must be so in the burbs. In Chicago i have noticed that there is ALOT of marijuana use and alcohol, but i believe that is nothing compared to meth. I used to smoke weed in highschool and some of my friends still partake in the pleasures of cannabis, but honestly Crystal Meth? No, I’m a regular at some of the hottest gay clubs for minors in chicago and I have never seen or heard of meth use among my peers. Meeting Marc and Fausto was def. the best thing about Thursday, plus the free shirt!

  7. jimberly says:

    I am really glad you came BarbieBoy – and that while it may have started out a bit dry, you hung out long enough to see things start to cook. And we will make sure to have condoms and food at all our gigs!

    Speaking of gigs, hope you – and all the other Chicago FoFers, join us for our next forum – this time about sex and the internet. It’s called Driving Tips for Sex on the Superhighway and our featured speaker will be Stephan Adelson who used to be the GM at Manhunt and is doing really cool work engaging sex sites and public health to make a better experience online for everyone.

    So, please set aside Thursday, June 12, doors open at 6p, and we will be back the Center on Halsted – this time in the theater. Of course, Fausto and Marc will be back again to host, moderate, and just be fffffffierce.

    Look for more info and details on the FoF site, on LifeLube and the LifeLube blog.

    MWAH

  8. Thx to Jim for putting this togerther and all the work Fausto did editing the show. Was worth the listen.

  9. the zak says:

    At 1:18:20
              > Now when I was growing up I read a book called
              > Arrowsmith by Sinclair Lewis which talked about
              > the relative importance of researching the
              > causative factors of an epidemic while the
              > epidemic was raging.

    Search in this book for…
    epidemic
    at
    http://books.google.com/books?id=ce0EYs267ZEC

  10. the zak says:

    At 1:18:20
              > laws of physics…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_law

  11. bbyface_benitez says:

    There were a lot of wise souls and a whole lot of loony blokes in the crowd! For a minute I thought the guy was talking about Aerosmith, known for their hit song “Dude Looks Like a Lady.”

  12. Aww thanks for your Praise Patchouli! I did spend quite a bit of time trying to clean up the audio from the event, which is always a hair-raising experience.

    It did give me a moment to sink in all the ideas presented in this, and learn from listening to the audio (again, and again, and again) what works and what doesn’t.

    Like I said before, these live forums are new to everyone and we’re hoping to create these on a regular basis to inform, engage and entertain our GLBTQQCXYZ community here in Chi-towne.

  13. DCRyan says:

    I hate to say it but I’m going to….that guy Luke with the rhinestone studded FOF T is smoking hot, cheese and rice!

  14. Roberto says:

    Hey, I really liked this discussion.. I did sense a bit of discomfort at times, just by listening to it.. But I guess you’ll have that when u talk so bluntly about gay sex in a public setting. I was surprised when Fausto just came out toward the beginning and said “You can take a dick up your ass!” or something like that…There were other examples that i can’t remember.. but these are supposedly professional, scholarly people.. what the hell?… Don’t be so “formal” Haha, just kidding, it was interesting and informative.. Good job and thanks.

    PS, did Dr. Ruth ever use such vulgar language? I don’t think she did 😉

  15. the zak says:

    by Byron Pitts
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/01/60minutes/main4063191.shtml

    …But there’s no question that Farmer has been a driving force. Take
    AIDS, for example: in the late 1990s the disease was ravaging the
    people of Haiti. Conventional medical wisdom was there is no point in
    giving AIDS drugs to the poor in Third World countries.
    But Farmer wouldn’t give up on his patients. He raised money
    and gave them drugs anyway.

    Patients, like a man named Joseph, went from being very ill to
    feeling better. The same kind of transformation happened in
    patient after patient.

    “When Paul started treating people in 1998 in Haiti, everyone said he
    was absolutely nuts. ‘Impossible. Can’t be done. Forget about it,'”
    says Dr. Jim Kim, a professor at Harvard Medical School and one of the
    co-founders of Partners In Health.

    “And here we are, you know, not even a decade later, where the goal is
    to treat every single human on the planet who needs HIV treatment
    with the right drugs,” Dr. Kim says.

    They saved the life of a man stricken with tuberculosis and thousands
    like him. Farmer and Kim figured out not just a new way to treat
    multi drug-resistant TB, but a cheaper way to provide the medicine.
    Their breakthrough has become the new standard and has
    saved the lives of people around the world.

    “You were able to lower drug prices.
    How is that possible?” Pitts asks.

    “I realized very quickly that these are all old generic drugs. There’s
    no reason for them to be so expensive. So we did some very simple
    things. We talked to drug procurement specialists who had contacts in
    India who said, ‘We can make these drugs for 100th of the price,'”
    Kim explains.

    But drugs only work if people take them, so Partners In Health came up
    with the idea of hiring community health workers. The workers, fellow
    villagers, visit the sick at home every day, making sure they take
    their medicine. The result, says Farmer, is that their patients with
    AIDS and TB stay healthier longer than many patients in the U.S.

    “Yes, there are people here in central Haiti who get better care for
    certain diseases than they would in parts of the United States,”
    Farmer says.

    “Come on,” Pitts says.

    “No, I’m absolutely serious. I’ve seen it,” Farmer replies.

    It’s a program so successful, Partners In Health has exported the
    model of using community health workers to American communities like
    Roxbury, Mass…
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/01/60minutes/main4063191.shtml
    by Byron Pitts

  16. What you talking about Zak? Explain.

  17. the zak says:

    > What you talking about Zak? Explain.

    The over arching idea is a thought experiment… the strategy of let’s get tested TOGETHER BEFORE we have sex, for A VARIETY of STDs. A sexual health checkup reduces ambiguity and can be like anything else potential sex partners might do together.

  18. Marc Felion says:

    That is a great idea Zak. Why do you think people aren’t do it?

  19. the zak says:

              > Why do you think people aren’t do it?

    Most potential sex partners would not. Think biological imperative, too powerful a force. Nature programs us… go ahead with sexual opportunities.

    The 3 SEX RULES
    SEX RULE number 1. Sex is more important than dying.
    SEX RULE number 2. Sex is more important than killing somebody.
    SEX RULE number 3. If people could change their sexual behavior we wouldn’t be here.

  20. Superboy says:

    What about the heat of the moment? Every gay bar exists because people meet each other there and go home. Is it possible to go to a clinic at 2am on a Sunday morning?

    And even if you both go get tested, who’s to say the other guy isn’t going to lie to you about the results?

    Here is another thought experiment for you:
    http://www.weallhaveaids.com

    If Will Smith, Tom Hanks, Dame Elizabeth Taylor and Nelson Mandela say we all have aids, believe them. Celebrities do not lie.

  21. Ha ha, that’s true! They do not lie. Rosie does not lie.

  22. the zak says:

    How about a podcast from a doctor’s office or clinic?… where you both get tested together for a variety of sexually transmitted diseases with running commentary from yourselves and clinicians there. Advocate sexual health checkups. Talk about the stereotypes of the clinic, the drawing of a little tube of blood, oral urethral rectal swabs, vaccinating for hepatitis B and for hepatitis A.

  23. You want me to record a doctor going up my yoo hoo with a swab?

    Actually, we considered doing that and even approached some health care organizations about doing it, but I came to the conclusion that I didn’t want to give up my patient/doctor confidentiality. I do have my limits Zak!

    Nobody is stopping you from doing this yourself and posting it. It might make for a great YouTube video! Go Zak Go!!

  24. the zak says:

              > What about the heat of the moment?

    There might be people with the kind of genetic combination for interrupting, delaying, doing something before the sexual opportunity, for example a greater fear of death, getting sick, paranoia, obsessive compulsivity.

              > Every gay bar exists because people
              > meet each other there and go home.
              > Is it possible to go to a clinic at 2am
              > on a Sunday morning?

    There are rapid testing kits for human immunodeficiency virus.

              > And even if you both go get tested,
              > who’s to say the other guy
              > isn’t going to lie to you about the results?

    How would you lie about the results?… when getting tested TOGETHER BEFORE having sex, for A VARIETY of STDs.

  25. jimberly says:

    “sex is more important than kiilling somebody”???????

    what a line of BULLSHIT.

    “sex is more important than dying?” ??????

    how can those simplistic and sophomoric comments be explained, other than by a hysterical response to HIV risk? The vast majority of human beings, HIV negative and HIV positive, do not want to cause themselves or another person harm when having sex – and putting ourselves at risk during risk hardly equates to suicidal or murderous tendencies.

    This kind of language is beyond the pale, and should be challenged.

    Driving – even with seatbelts and obeying all laws – is very risky and can cause great harm, even immediate death. Is the urge to drive more important than killing somebody or dying?

    Let me say it again in case I wasn’t clear – what a pile of steaming CRAP.

    And the notion of two people getting tested together before having sex completely misses the mark as an HIV intervention that could work for the vast majority of people at elevated risk for acquiring HIV. Folks who would take such a step in the real world are likely to be themselves very cautious people who likely are not engaging in many, if any behaviors, such as unprotected vaginal or anal intercourse, that would put them at risk for exposure to HIV. And it completely misses the large proportion of folks who test postiive for HIV, and other STDs, in the context of a relationship.

    Let me share – it was in the context of a relationship that I tested pos 13 years ago.

    Should my partner and I have gone to the clinic every time we wanted to fuck? Ummmm, how would that have worked, exactly?

    We need to have things that are workable and doable for people in the real world, and I have yet to see any, any, any evidence from ANYONE that a strategy such as that Mr. Zak suggests could possibly work in the REAL WORLD (not the MTV variety either) or that ANYONE working in the fields of sexual health, gay men’s health, or HIV prevention might even consider it as something worth exploring.

    This “thought experiment” reveals some seriously flawed thinking, IMHO.

    Jim

  26. the zak says:

    SEX RULE number 1
              > “sex is more important than kiilling somebody”???????

              > what a line of BULLSHIT.

    That looked like a kind of magical attack of name calling.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_calling

    SEX RULE number 2
              > “sex is more important than dying?” ??????
              >
              > how can those simplistic and
              > sophomoric comments be explained, other than
              > by a hysterical response to HIV risk?

    Depending on the level of hysteria, it might just be enough for him to
    change what nature programmed us to do, go ahead with sexual
    opportunities, don’t first do something for preventing what could
    happen…

    And how many times will it take for people with name calling behavior
    to change? Could people with name calling behavior ever change?
    Can people with name calling behavior modify it?…

              > The vast majority of human beings, HIV negative
              > and HIV positive, do not want to cause
              > themselves or another person harm when having
              > sex – and putting ourselves at risk during risk
              > hardly equates to suicidal or murderous
              > tendencies.

    If that were really true we wouldn’t have the epidemic.

              > This kind of language is beyond the pale,
              > and should be challenged.

    Challenging things, it’s the right thing to do.

              > Driving – even with seatbelts and obeying all
              > laws – is very risky and can cause great harm,
              > even immediate death. Is the urge to drive more
              > important than killing somebody or dying?

    Is there any state or province in North America that doesn’t have
    pending court cases with automobile drivers where people died?

              > Let me say it again in case I wasn’t clear –
              > what a pile of steaming CRAP.

    Let’s see if name calling will stop or continue.

              > And the notion of two people getting tested
              > together before having sex completely misses the
              > mark as an HIV intervention that could work for
              > the vast majority of people at elevated risk for
              > acquiring HIV. Folks who would take such a step
              > in the real world are likely to be themselves
              > very cautious people who likely are not engaging
              > in many, if any behaviors, such as unprotected
              > vaginal or anal intercourse, that would put them
              > at risk for exposure to HIV. And it completely
              > misses the large proportion of folks who test
              > postiive for HIV, and other STDs, in the context
              > of a relationship.

    Reducing the ambiguity is the premise of the strategy of let’s get
    tested TOGETHER BEFORE we have sex for A VARIETY of STDs.

              > Let me share – it was in the context of a relationship that I
              > tested pos 13 years ago.
              >
              > Should my partner and I have gone to the clinic every time we
              > wanted to fuck? Ummmm, how would that have worked, exactly?

    It’s not the strategy. The strategy is one thing and one thing only…
    let’s get tested TOGETHER BEFORE having sex, for A VARIETY of STDs.

    After potential sex partners do the strategy it’s up to them to use
    the information and it’s up to them what course of action they take.

    Getting tested at the beginning before having sex detects infections
    that may have exposed others to these infections already. Reducing the
    ambiguity gives potential sex partners information they didn’t have
    and they can make more choices. For example, one person might get
    positive test results for human immunodeficiency virus. The other
    might get negative test results. One or both might decide not to
    have sex with each other and look for somebody else.

    People not infected should have the right to have sex with anybody
    they want. People not infected should have the right to have sex with
    people with infections. Before having sex potential sex partners
    should have the right to know whether there are any infections that
    could kill them or whether they could get sick or whether they could
    pass on the infections to others.

    A thought experiment… two guys meet and one guy tells the other guy
    I have an infection and if you get it you could die after a prolonged
    painful illness. What would most guys do?… Would most guys head for
    the hills?… or go ahead with a sexual opportunity?…

              > We need to have things that are workable and
              > doable for people in the real world, and I have
              > yet to see any, any, any evidence from ANYONE
              > that a strategy such as that Mr. Zak suggests
              > could possibly work in the REAL WORLD (not the
              > MTV variety either) or that ANYONE working in
              > the fields of sexual health, gay men’s health,
              > or HIV prevention might even consider it as
              > something worth exploring.

    There’s no evidence of any failure of the use of the strategy.
    Only after doing the strategy of let’s get tested TOGETHER BEFORE we
    have sex, for A VARIETY of STDs can you have evidence of its failure.
    There’s lots of evidence for the failure of so called protection like
    so called safer sex practices and condoms. Rates of new infections of
    sexually transmitted diseases among MDs working in STD clinics is no
    lower than rates of new infections of STDs among the general
    population.

    Why not just do it?…

    What’s the worse that could happen?…

    You could get a horrible disease and spend years dying.

    Or you could give someone a horrible disease and they
    could spend years dying.

              > This “thought experiment” reveals
              > some seriously flawed thinking, IMHO.

    Thought experiments do reveal things like flawed thinking
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment

  27. the zak says:

              > If Will Smith, Tom Hanks, Dame Elizabeth Taylor and
              > Nelson Mandela say we all have aids, believe them.
              > Celebrities do not lie.

    this is a definition related to the body politic…

  28. the zak says:

    Regarding…
    SEX RULE number 2
    Sex is more important than killing somebody

    Ask yourself: has ANYONE, ever in the history of this disease,
    known they were positive, then had unsafe sex with someone
    who was not positive, passed on the disease, then saw that
    person die of the infection? If that has NEVER happened, then
    one could say that statement was wrong.

    But it would appear that, even today, positive people are passing
    this disease on to negative people who then die from it.

    The 3 SEX RULES
    SEX RULE number 1
    Sex is more important than dying.

    SEX RULE number 2
    Sex is more important than killing somebody.

    SEX RULE number 3
    If people could change their sexual behavior we wouldn’t be here.

  29. the zak says:

              > Let me share – it was in the context of
              > a relationship that I tested pos 13 years ago.

              > …that ANYONE working in the fields of sexual health,
              > gay men’s health, or HIV prevention might even
              > consider it as something worth exploring.

    Further: a single anecdote from a survivor of this killing field
    tells us very little. How do we hear from the thousands of the
    dead who had a consequence very different from this single
    story of a survivor? This is a Best-Of-Intentions Holocaust.

  30. the zak says:

    see also
    http://www.caps.ucsf.edu/projects/SafeinCity/SICstory.php

    Moderators note: Please do not post random links. Please explain what the link is so people can decide whether they want to follow the link or not.

  31. Wow — I feel like I should make some kind of declarative statement here…Zak’s a, well…a tough act to follow.

    *blink*

    So, I declare: great show! I listened to it twice today and it really made me think and consider some things. I think that’s one of your strengths, boys. 🙂

  32. Trannylover says:

    Shine on you crazy diamond. There is a whole lotta craaaazy in your rambling comments Zak.

    Still, I agre with Fausto. I want to see your YouTube video of you getting tested for HIV before you have anal sex! And then put the sex video on X-Tube.

  33. the zak says:

    Safe in the city, the video
    3 interwoven dramatic stories depicting different sexual risk situations
    http://www.caps.ucsf.edu/projects/SafeinCity/SICstory.php

    Joanne Lagasca-Carpio will send out the video on request
    or ask that the video be made available on the web!
    email Joanne.Carpio at sfdph.org

  34. TrickyToro says:

    Really impressed with your moderation in a public forum. I consider myself above averge informed but I heard quite a few things I hadn’t heard before. In fact I shared the podcast with the Psych Svcs. manager on campus and it spawned a very interesting lecture date next week. Well done. Thank you!

  35. the zak says:

              > Trannylover says:
              > May 6, 2008 at 15:17

    Have you been a sadist all your life?

  36. the zak says:

              > In fact I shared the podcast with
              > the Psych Svcs. manager on campus and
              > it spawned a very interesting lecture date next week.

    What’s the lecture?…

  37. jimberly says:

    Thanks for that feedback TrickyToro – love that this podcast is spawning more conversation and debate – just what we wanted it to do. Will also help us continue these into the future.

  38. jimberly says:

    Killer Gay Sex!

    As we talked about superinfection and re-infection at this forum, and there was a fair amoutn of confusion and mis-information – this will be of interest to all.

    LifeLube, your sweet spot on the net, has just linked to an essay, an AMAZING and MUST-READ essay, by LifeLube’s very smart, very articulate and very fabulous pal Tony Valenzuela.

    Just published in POZ, it centers on the controversy from a few years back regarding the New York man with the so-called HIV “supervirus.” With it, he hopes to be a part of, as well as encourage, a dialog concerning the pathologizing of gay sex and the extraordinary need for an assets-based, holistic approach to gay men’s lives and health.

    Why do we, members of the LGBT community, continue to stigmatize one another, point fingers and shriek at “bad gays?”

    Why do we continue to allow public health authorities, the media and others outside our community to whip up hysteria and terror at our expense?

    Click here – http://www.lifelube.blogspot.com

  39. Lolaqua says:

    That’s so funny – I just read this article, “Sex is Nothing Like Pizza”.

    http://www.goodsexeverytime.com/index.php?p=2_31

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